Ep. 8: Building Relationships and Rapport Within the Chamber

Written By POPVOX Foundation

Congress is known to be a relationship business, but it also has a reputation for being a hub of debate and partisan turmoil. In this episode, Aubrey Wilson and Taylor J. Swift dig into how new Members and staff can overcome partisan challenges by seeking the advice of seasoned current and former Representatives and staff.

Congressman Derek Kilmer [D, WA], representing Washington's sixth Congressional district, has served in the House of Representatives since 2012. With a background in economic development and a doctorate from the University of Oxford, Kilmer has focused on bipartisan solutions to economic and Congressional challenges. As the leader of the Select Committee on the Modernization of Congress for four years, Kilmer spearheaded efforts to make Congress more efficient and bipartisan, proposing 202 recommendations and establishing a permanent Subcommittee on Modernization. His commitment to bipartisanship and effective governance has earned him recognition from various organizations, including the Bipartisan Policy Center's Legislative Advocacy Award and Issue One's Teddy Award for political reform.

Former Congressman Rodney Davis [R, IL] served as a Representative for Illinois' thirteenth district for five terms. Known for his willingness to work across party lines, Davis held key positions including Ranking Member of the Committee on House Administration and Deputy Whip. He also served on the Select Committee on the Modernization of Congress, Committee on Transportation, and Committee on Agriculture. Before his election to the House in 2012, Davis spent 16 years as projects director for Congressman John Shimkus, where he focused on helping Illinois residents navigate government processes and supporting local economic development.

Former Congressman Ed Perlmutter [D, CO], a seasoned politician from Colorado, served two terms in the Colorado State Senate and eight terms in the House of Representatives for Colorado's seventh district. During his tenure in Congress, Perlmutter held positions on several key committees, including Rules, the Select Committee on the Modernization of Congress, Financial Services, as well as Science, Space, and Technology.

Former Congressman Rodney Davis [R, IL] served as a Republican Representative for Illinois' thirteenth district for five terms. Known for his willingness to work across party lines, Davis held key positions including Ranking Member of the Committee on House Administration and Deputy Whip. He also served on the Select Committee on the Modernization of Congress, Committee on Transportation, and Committee on Agriculture. Before his election to the House in 2012, Davis spent 16 years as projects director for Congressman John Shimkus, where he focused on helping Illinois residents navigate government processes and supporting local economic development.

Former Congressman Brian Baird [D, WA], a psychologist turned politician, represented Washington's third Congressional district in the House of Representatives from 1999 to 2011. Following his tenure in Congress, he served as President of Antioch University Seattle and has since focused on promoting civility in politics, as evidenced by his co-authorship of the "Civility, Not Violence Pledge" and his ongoing work with various political reform organizations including the US Former Members of Congress Association.

Bradford “Brad” Fitch served as the longtime President and CEO of the Congressional Management Foundation (CMF), a role to which he brought over three decades of diverse experience in Washington. With a career spanning journalism, Congressional staff positions, consulting, and academia, Brad developed a comprehensive understanding of Congressional operations. His tenure on Capitol Hill included roles as Press Secretary, Campaign Manager, Legislative Director, and Chief of Staff for four Members of Congress. At CMF, Brad led initiatives to enhance Congressional management practices, strengthen public trust in the Legislative branch, and improve constituent-advocacy engagement. Known for his energetic training sessions and deep commitment to the institution of Congress, Brad has conducted hundreds of trainings for tens of thousands of advocates, cementing his reputation as a respected nonpartisan voice in Washington.

Key Tips

No shortcuts

Relationships take time to build – as well as intentionality. Being a Member of Congress is already a demanding job but seeking out opportunities to foster conversation and relationships with your peers can lead to lasting mentorships and support systems. Examples include weeknight dinners at the Library of Congress, attending Congressional delegation trips (CODELs), finding a workout partner for the Members’ Gym, or simply introducing yourself to a fellow Member during a vote on the floor.

In your shoes

Only fellow Members truly understand the unique challenges an individual faces when they become a Representative and in navigating those first years in office. Freshmen Members should prioritize building friendships and a support system to help bolster their personal wellbeing and mental health.

Play ball!

Participating in official congressional charity sporting events, such as the Congressional Baseball Game or Softball Game, have been known as key relationship builders for Members not only within their own parties, but also across the aisle.

Caucus connections

Unlike official committee activity, caucus-hosted meetings and policy discussions are often more casual and off the record. In this setting, Members who have self-selected to participate in the caucus gather to dig into a policy topic of choice. This environment presents many new Members with the ability to find mentors and form relationships with peers who share a common interest.

Notable Quotes

“[Congress] would be better if we focused on building goodwill and friendships and trying to find answers that are beneficial to everybody, rather than trying to pick winners and losers. That’s just, you know, an ethos for how you function in the place. But beyond that, the reality is today’s antagonist may be tomorrow’s partner. There are 99 things that I might disagree with a conservative Republican on, but sometimes I’ve actually introduced legislation with very conservative Republicans. And sometimes we come to solutions from an entirely different angle, but when we approach each other with respect and with civility, the reality is sometimes we can work together and do some good stuff.”
— Rep. Derek Kilmer [D, WA]
“When you go into the House Chamber, there’s this sense of this aisle that divides us. You don’t have to stay on your side of the aisle during a vote series. You know, I will often cross the aisle and talk to Members either about something that I’m working on or just go up and introduce myself to people because, you know, 435 is a lot. And, you know, I generally like to know the people I work with, and nothing keeps you from doing that. So I really encourage new Members to take that not too lengthy voyage across the center of the Chamber and just go and introduce yourself to folks on the other side of the aisle.”
— Rep. Derek Kilmer [D, WA]
“We became buddies through sports. Initially, I would say the gym and playing catch. He played on the Republican baseball team. I played on the Democratic baseball team. And in the off season, we would play catch down in the gym…And then all of a sudden you have a relationship that’s really so different than a political relationship, whether the politics on, you know, whether he was on my side of the aisle, it’s…like, okay, this is…how people interact elsewhere in the world playing catch, you know, visiting at the gym or whatever…If you can work with everybody, you’re a better legislator. But it’s when you’re doing something different – the gym or you’re doing sports with somebody or you’re going on a trip with them – you develop an entirely different relationship. And that then gives you a cushion to try to work on some of the legislative stuff.”
— Former Rep. Ed Perlmutter [D, CO]
“It doesn’t mean you can’t have your political principles and fight for them, but in the end, you’ve got to realize life’s a lot more about friendships than it is about your job. And don’t let the job become you and define you. Because if that happens, then you’re going to see the lights that light up the Capitol at night and you’re going to be frustrated by it instead of being awed by it. And when that day comes, it’s time to go.”
— Former Rep. Rodney Davis [R, IL]
“I think the first thing Members have to realize is in this very divided government that we have: unless you choose bipartisanship, you will be ineffective. You will not get anything done. I was at a breakfast with a Legislative Director from a Democratic office and a Legislative Director from a Republican office, and he was asked – the Democrat was asked kind of the same question, you know – ‘why is it that you have embraced your Republican colleague to work on so many projects together?’ And the young man replied, ‘I like passing bills into laws and I realized I need Republicans to do that.’ So it’s pretty straightforward. This is the way the institution works.”
— Bradford Fitch, former President and CEO of the Congressional Management Foundation
“When Members are freshmen and they’re thinking about building bridges across party lines, it’s really important that they’re intentional and that they have a goal in mind, because that’s the incentive. So, I’ve known Members of Congress who have said, ‘I want an equal number of Members of both parties to cosponsor my bill.’ So they’ve instructed their staff: if you get a Democrat, you’ve got to go find another Republican…So they’ve created structures that require bipartisanship to happen. And it works in a wonderful way. I do encourage Members of Congress to engage in Congressional delegation trips called CODELs, where they do meet Members of the other party. I encourage them, especially at the committee level – there are opportunities to have retreats or have informal dinners with their colleagues.”
— Bradford Fitch, former President and CEO of the Congressional Management Foundation

Highlighted and Additional Resources

Further Listening

To hear more from these guests and how they’ve navigated relationship building on the Hill, we recommend you check out episode 9 on “I Wish I Knew Then What I Know Now.”

About the Hosts

Aubrey Wilson is POPVOX Foundation’s Director of Government Innovation. Aubrey served as former Deputy Staff Director for the Committee on House Administration (CHA) in the 118th Congress. In this role, she coordinated efforts to make the House work more effectively, including overseeing the inaugural session of CHA’s bipartisan Subcommittee on Modernization. Prior, Aubrey served as Director of Oversight and Modernization for CHA during the 117th Congress. She is a former House legislative assistant and member of the R Street Institute Governance Policy and federal affairs team.

Taylor J. Swift is POPVOX Foundation’s Director of Government Capacity. Prior to joining POPVOX Foundation, Taylor was a senior policy advisor at Demand Progress, focusing on Congressional transparency, efficiency, capacity, and modernization. Taylor also worked at the House of Representatives Democratic Caucus where he focused on congressional modernization, budget, appropriations, education, labor, environmental, and tax policy. Taylor graduated with his master’s degree from The University of Akron, working as a teaching assistant for the Bliss Institute of Applied Politics.

About the Podcast

“Gavel In” is a nonpartisan explainer podcast series designed especially to mentor new Members Elect of the incoming 119th Congress, their staff, and families to help them successfully set up their new office, team, and Washington home base with ease and navigate the professional and personal challenges of life as a Representative. Gavel In guides Members-Elect about House Floor operations, office structure and hiring, budgeting, technology, security, ethics, and also the intricacies of parliamentary procedure, rules, and how a bill becomes a law.

Created by former Congressional staff from both sides of the aisle by the nonpartisan POPVOX Foundation, “Gavel In” features expert advice from former Members of Congress and their spouses and is a great complement to the House’s official New Member Orientation to ensure Members Elect get all the support they need to succeed as they embark on their new careers in Congress.

About POPVOX Foundation

With a mission to inform and empower people and make government work better for everyone, POPVOX Foundation is focused on ensuring that democratic institutions are equipped to address the “pacing problem” — the gap between emerging technologies and governance. Co-founded in 2021 and led by proud former Congressional staffers from both sides of the aisle, the team at POPVOX Foundation brings empathy, a deep respect for the Legislative branch, and diverse expertise to its efforts to modernize Congress and other governing institutions.

Transcript

Ep. 8: Building Relationships and Rapport Within the Chamber

Introduction

Taylor J. Swift: Welcome to episode eight of Gavel In, a podcast series focused on demystifying how the House of Representatives works. We've created this show for incoming House freshmen of the 119th Congress, their spouses, and their staff as an off-the-Hill resource to supplement your official New Member Orientation onboarding.

Aubrey Wilson: We’re your hosts Aubrey Wilson and Taylor J. Swift. We’re two recovering House staffers from both sides of the aisle who share a love of the institution, and are dedicated in supporting its ongoing evolution through our work at POPVOX Foundation. We're a nonpartisan nonprofit that works to inform and empower people to make government work better for everyone.

Taylor J. Swift: We spent the last couple of months gathering the perspectives of prominent Members of Congress, think tank experts, staffers, and Congressional veterans who shared their vast Capitol Hill knowledge and pull back the curtain on what life is really like in Congress.

Aubrey Wilson: And although our episodes are full of advice from people who have truly walked the walk of the House, we do want to be transparent. This podcast is not official guidance.

Taylor J. Swift: For this episode, “Building Relationships and Rapport Within the Chamber,” we got current and former Members of Congress, alongside a longtime Congressional staffer and management expert, to help spill the tea on what it's really like to put the fun in functional Congress. But seriously, Aubrey, how can you overcome partisan challenges, show your constituents that Washington can and does work and make friends within your caucus or conference, and also work across the aisle and get stuff done?

Aubrey Wilson: It's a tall order, for sure, Taylor, especially immediately following an election cycle, but it's worth the effort. To gain insights on how they personally navigate these relationship dynamics on the Hill, for this episode, we're very excited to welcome on Representative Derek Kilmer, Representative Maxwell Frost, former Representatives Rodney Davis, Ed Perlmutter, and Brian Baird, and former Chief of Staff and the longtime CEO of the Congressional Management Foundation Brad Fitch.

Let's gavel in.

Taylor, I'm so glad that we're doing an episode on this topic. And really, I think if there's going to be one episode of Gavel In that's the closest to my heart, it's this one. You know, I grew up in a really conservative part of the country and come from a really Republican family.

And prior to working in Congress, I don't actually think I had ever had a policy discussion with somebody who identified as a Democrat, and I expected it to come to Congress and have that be kind of a continuation of that same story. The partisanship that was back at my home town, I, I expected that to actually be elevated in Congress.

I think that that's, you know, kind of the narrative that we see. But in reality, you know, there is so much nonpartisanship and incredible relationships that happen in Congress across the aisle. And it's actually when things really get done. I think that we've been so lucky with the guests that we've had on the episodes so far, but particularly for this episode they really highlight where those relationships take place and the fact that it is the relationships across the aisle that are the most productive in Congress.

Taylor J. Swift: I share a lot of the exact same feelings, Aubrey. So I did grow up in, you know, a divorce household. And my parents actually came from the opposite sides of the political aisle. So I was a little more familiar of trying to balance my understanding and values, just from my upbringing. But I also was a little scared when coming to Congress, because when you see, at least on TV, partisan bomb throwing and, you know, tons of messaging and gotcha moments. When in reality, as I as I got, you know, I started as an intern and worked my way up, I realized that 99% of the people that I met in the halls of the House were not like that at all. And it honestly made me excited to come to work, because I knew that if I could continue to learn and continue to grow and continue to build my network, there were so many people that worked in the institution that felt the exact same way I did about having a strong Congress.

We might not necessarily agree on the same policies, maybe even the same values, but we had a shared understanding of what we thought was best for the American people. And I think that at the bare minimum, the respect for your fellow colleague, even if it's someone on the opposite side of the aisle, can go such a long way in making sure that you can work together to do something good.

Aubrey Wilson: Yeah. We forget, I think, in this town that, you know, a political affiliation, it's, you know, part of someone's personality or part of someone's description or bio, but it's not their entire being or how their entire, you know, life is defined. And there's so much to every single person who works on the Hill. And I loved working in politics, in Congress particularly, because you really find out that every single person who works in a House office is there to make the country work better, regardless of kind of their political affiliation or their background. It's just different ways of like solving problems. But everyone is there with like the best intention. At least everyone I ever crossed paths with.

Taylor J. Swift: No, you're exactly right, Aubrey. And actually, to build off what you were just saying, I think and you would probably agree with me on this, that institutional modernization and helping Congress grow is actually one of the key ways that Members and staff have come together. So I'm really, really excited to intro our first guest on today's episode, who is actually chairing the House Select Committee on the Modernization of Congress a couple of years ago, Representative Derek Kilmer, he is a Democrat from Washington’s sixth Congressional district.

He served in the House since 2012. He's actually retiring at the end of the 118th, but has made a huge impact in the modernizing Congress space to make sure that the institution can work better for the American people. As I mentioned, he was the Chair of the House Select Committee on the Modernization of Congress for four years. So he helped spearhead tons of efforts to make Congress more efficient and bipartisan. The Select Committee actually proposed and recommended 202 recommendations, and helped establish a permanent Subcommittee on Modernization within the Committee on House Administration.

So in 2021, the House Select Committee on the Modernization of Congress actually crafted 25 recommendations to improve civility and crosspartisan collaboration. These initiatives included creating a civility integration into New Member Orientation, helping host bipartisan gatherings, and creating a dedicated office to promote these best practices. The committee also encouraged informal collaboration spaces, established agreed upon norms for Member interaction, and also creating flexible work spaces for staff to enhance collaboration as well. Additionally, they recommended displaying nonpartisan bill summaries to foster clearer understandings across party lines. And so, it's clear that his commitment to bipartisanship and effective government has earned him recognition. So some of the organizations that have really deemed his governance effective include the Bipartisan Policy Center's Legislative Advocacy Award and Issue One's Teddy Award for Political Reform.

Aubrey Wilson: I'll also jump in, Taylor, and just add that when you're thinking about, you know, how partisan Congress is and you want to actually see another side of Congress and some of what Taylor and I are talking about, and some of which just Taylor highlighted, I really recommend that you pull up one or two of the hearings from the past Select Committee on the Modernization of Congress, because just the way that those Members, even like, sat around the dais, how they interacted with each other, it's a side of Congress that a lot of the public doesn't see and doesn't expect.

That Select Committee was really innovative in its approach for bipartisanship in ways that a lot of new committees are actually considering to adopt. So, for example, instead of sitting on the dais as Republicans on one side and Democrats on the other, they had a 50/50 committee where they actually mixed up seating so that it was Democrat or Republican, Democrat or Republican, just to force conversations between the two sides.

And it led to some great relationships, one of which was actually, Representative Davis and Representative Perlmutter, who at oftentimes during those committee hearings, would sit next to each other on the Select Committee on the Modernization of Congress. And it really fostered a great friendship between those two. We actually have them later on in this episode, talking about their relationship across the aisle, and how much that's really given kind of an extra level of value to their time in Congress when they served.

Taylor J. Swift: Let's head to this conversation with Representative Kilmer now.

Interview with Rep. Derek Kilmer [D, WA]

Taylor J. Swift: So Representative Kilmer, looking back on your career in Congress, you've been Chair of the House Select Committee on the Modernization of Congress. You've been a Congressional appropriator. It's very evident that one of the reasons you've been so effective was due to your respect for your colleagues and the institution. So why do you think respect, civility, and bipartisanship are so important for this institution?

Rep. Derek Kilmer: You know, as I'm sitting here at my desk, I'm staring at, you know, a framed copy of the Rotary Four-Way test, which says on it, you know, “In the things we think, say, and do, is it the truth? Is it fair to all concerned? Will build goodwill and better friendships? And will it be beneficial to all concerned?”

I was, in fact, a Rotarian before coming to Congress, but I'm really struck by the fact that Congress would be a much better place, a much more functional place, and a place that functions better on behalf of our constituents if we abided by those concepts. You know, actually sticking to fact, right. Is it the truth? We would be a much more functional place if we thought about fairness to everyone involved.

It would be better if we focused on building goodwill and friendships and trying to find answers that are beneficial to everybody, rather than trying to pick winners and losers. That's just a, you know, an ethos for how you function in the place. But beyond that, you know, the reality is today's antagonist may be tomorrow's partner.

There are, you know, 99 things that I might disagree with a conservative Republican on, but sometimes I've actually introduced legislation with very conservative Republicans, and sometimes we come to solutions from an entirely different angle. But when we approach each other with respect and with civility, the reality is sometimes we can work together and do some good stuff.

I remember in my first term as a freshman in the minority, I had a Financial Services bill that was focused on helping poor people save money. It was actually, came out of some work that a group of nonprofits and the Asset Building Coalition had done, focused on helping asset-poor people build assets. And it came from research out of an economist at Harvard who found that asset-poor people disproportionately didn't have savings accounts. And if they did, they weren't making deposits into their savings accounts. And he found that asset-poor people disproportionately gamble and play the lottery.

And so this economist at Harvard came up with this idea called prize-linked savings, where you could take the excitement of gambling and playing the lottery and applying it to saving money. And basically the notion was every time you made a deposit, you would earn a chance.

And the chance was for cash prizes. Your money would never be at risk. But rather, a financial institution could use some of its marketing budget. And rather than doing TV ads or online ads, could offer cash prizes out of their marketing budget. And here's what they found. They found that it wildly impacted savings behavior. People were far more likely to open up an account.

People were far more likely to make deposits into the account. The other thing they found was that it was illegal. Not for any good reason. It was just because financial regulators and policymakers never thought about anything like this. And so we actually introduced a bill. We worked with the Asset Building Coalition to introduce legislation that would allow these things called prize-linked savings accounts.

And I remember approaching one of the conservative Republican Members on the Financial Services Committee, but I knew him to be a pretty smart and thoughtful guy. And incredibly conservative. And I went up to him and I said, “Hey, I got this idea for you.” And I went through, you know, “Here's the research and here's what we found,” and went through all of it.

And he looked at me when I was done with my pitch for about ten seconds of silence. And if someone's ever looked at you for ten seconds in silence, I can tell you it is either the most romantic moment of your life or one of the most awkward moments of your life. But, after, in this case, ten of the most awkward seconds of my life, he said to me, “So what you're saying is you want to introduce legislation that would eliminate unnecessarily onerous financial regulations that keep financial institutions from offering innovative products that would make people more self-sufficient and less reliant on the government.”

To which I responded, “Sure.” I mean, for me, it was about helping poor people save money, and for him it was about eliminating unnecessarily onerous financial regulations that keep people from being more self sufficient and less reliant on the government. But it was a bill we ended up introducing together and it passed the House, passed the Senate and was signed into law.

Now, one of the poorest parts of my district has hundreds of people with these prize-link savings account. So I share that just as an example of, you know, that guy I partnered with, there's probably not a lot of things that we could have partnered together on just because we had fundamentally different worldviews, but because we were civil with each other, because we approach one another with respect, and because we recognize that in an environment, particularly of divided government, which we were in at that time, if we're going to make policy changes, you have to work in a bipartisan way.

Aubrey Wilson: For the freshman Members who are being sworn in for this upcoming Congress, it's obviously intimidating to come in to just serve in Congress in general as part of a freshman class, and then to find yourself as part of his body of 441 Representatives and Delegates that you have to get to know. With kind of all of the different dynamics at play, regardless of or like, including, I should say, like party and leadership, all of kind of coming off of the campaign trail and all of that energy. What are some of your recommendations for how they can really foster true relationships with their colleagues, given kind of all of the challenges of the Congressional schedule and just the challenges of those initial months in Congress.

Rep. Derek Kilmer: Well, let me mention four things that I think are valuable. One is: the Library of Congress hosts dinners. And oftentimes Members don't know about it. It's not something that, you know, if your Scheduler doesn't mention it, you don't know about it. But I'm telling every new Member, talk to your Scheduler and say, I want to know about every Library of Congress dinner.

The Library of Congress dinners take two different forms. One is, they invite a historian in to talk about, either a great American or an era of American history. And they're hosted by David Rubenstein, who always interviews an author. And they're really spectacular. They're just opportunities to sit down with Democrats and Republicans and share a meal. They also host quarterly civility dinners, where they invite in people specifically to talk about civility, and in the face of high conflict, how people can work together.

And they're really cool events and, even if that's not totally your jam, I'm telling you that they are a terrific use of time and they're good meals, and they're great opportunities to get to know some people. Second, you know, on the committees on which I've served, I've tried to make the effort to, you know, reach out to fellow committee Members to see if they want to share a meal.

So, you know, I serve on Appropriations before appropriation markups. As long as I've been on the committee, I've tried to reach out to one of my Republican colleagues and said, you know, hey, how about you invite three or four Members from your side of the aisle, and I'll invite three or four Members from my side of the aisle, and we'll go break bread together.

And I've found that to be a great way to just get to know some people and to develop some relationships. Third, CODELs are a great way to develop some of those relationships across the aisle when you travel together. You know, you just are in the trenches together and you get to know each other. And that's also, I think, valuable for relationship building.

And I know oftentimes when you're a freshman, you think like, well, I really got to be, you know, night and day in my district or in DC or, you know, the CODELs may not be something you can do, but the reality is, I've never regretted a CODEL I've taken. I've regretted a few that I passed on because they're always, you know, great learning experiences and great for building relationships.

And then finally, you know, they're as much as, you know, they're if you when you go into the House chamber, there's this sense of this aisle that divides us. You don't have to stay on your side of the aisle. During vote series, you know, I will often cross the aisle and talk to Members either about something that I'm working on or just go up and introduce myself to people because, you know, 435 is a lot.

And, you know, I generally like to know the people I work with, and nothing keeps you from doing that. So I really encourage new Members to, you know, to take that not too lengthy voyage across the center of the chamber and just go and introduce yourself to folks on the other side of the aisle.

Interview with Rep. Maxwell Frost [D, FL]

Taylor J. Swift: So our next guest is Representative Maxwell Alejandro Frost. He actually made history this most recent Congress as the first Gen Z Member elected. He represents Florida's tenth district in the House, and he is an Afro Latino with a background in community activism and organizing. So he's bringing a fresh perspective to Congress as one of the youngest Members ever elected.

During his freshman term, Representative Frost made it an intention of getting to know his colleagues from the other side of the aisle. Really excited for you all to listen to this one. So let's jump into our conversation now.

Aubrey Wilson: Representative Frost, as a Member who is wrapping up their freshman term, what is your top piece of advice for new Members for building relationships during their first year in Congress?

Rep. Maxwell Frost: I think the way that you show up those first few weeks are really important, and I really do believe in taking a step back and seeing yourself as part of a team and making sure the team knows you know that you're part of the team. That doesn't mean you can't be a leader.

It doesn't mean you can't shine. I mean, we're all Members of Congress. We all want to shine. But like, but, you know, I think making sure that people know, you know, why you're there or what issues you're interested in and, and and really taking intentional steps to learning the history of those issues and the institution getting to meet your colleagues with, genuine enthusiasm and curiosity, I think goes so long in being able to be effective in the body as well, because eventually when you need something from some folks and you come and you ask for that help or you ask for that advice, they actually, like, really want to give it to you, versus wanting to give it to you or help you to check a box, to, to get a favor.

And I think like that atmosphere can make or break things. And I've seen it too, like I've seen certain people here who are very transactional and everyone knows it. And you can just see the look on people's face when they go up and talk about things versus someone who is here to build, here to be a part of the team.

The other thing I'll always say, which is something my Chief told me when I first got here, is like, you always want to, you know, you want to try to start at a yes for everything, and you want to try to get to a yes for everything. And you always want to be very positive, even if you have to turn something down.

And I think that also goes a long way as well, because it just shows people like you, you know, you're not just there to push yourself, you're there to push our collective agenda, and you want everyone to succeed. And honestly, my freshman class, and I hope all the freshman classes have this too, but a lot of Members who have been here for a long time, come up to us and tell us that we're very close and like that we have a relationship that they haven't seen in a freshman class before. And part of that is we’re very collaborative. We really come together. We, you know, we're like kind of like a family. Not to be too cliche. And I think that's really helped us evade some of the drama that sometimes comes along with a new incoming class and a lot of different egos.

Interview with Former Rep. Brian Baird [D, WA]

Taylor J. Swift: Like Representative Kilmer, our next guest also spent time in the civility space after leaving Congress. Former Representative Brian Baird, a psychologist turned politician, represented Washington's third Congressional district in the House from 1999 to 2011.

Following his tenure in Congress, he served as President of Antioch University Seattle and has since focused on promoting civility in politics, as evidenced by coauthorship of the Civility Nonviolence Pledge and his ongoing work with various political reform organizations, including the US Former Members of Congress Association. For this conversation, former Representative Brian Baird wanted us to call him Brian.

Former Rep. Brian Baird: I represented a swing district. It was Republican before I got it. I picked it up, went Republican after I left. Now it's a Democrat again. And so kind of a classic swing district, pretty rural, pretty far away. And one of the things that I think is really important is, try to reach out to the other side, to genuinely find people who you have some kind of common interests and work together on things you share.

You know, I, I've said to people before, like we run on partisanship, we run as a Democrat or an independent or a Republican, but usually Republican or Democrat. And it's the nature of the rough and tumble that you sometimes criticize the other side, etc., but you don't have to demonize human beings. You don't have to or demonize the other party.

But when you're going to get something done, ideally you have to have champions and you have to have partners. So you have to have somebody who's going to take an issue and really sink their teeth into it and carry it across. But you also have to have people you work with. A very important piece of legislation I worked on, was called the which was had to deal with state sales tax deductibility. I won't go into a lot of detail on it, but it was a bipartisan issue because there were Members from states who are Republicans, Members of states who were Democrats. We had the same thing in common. Well, when I wanted to pass that legislation, what did I do? Well, I reached out to the second baseman and the shortstop.

Now what does that mean? That means I played on the Congressional ball game, the baseball game. And I got to know Zach Wamp from Tennessee, a Republican, a heck of a shortstop, I'm sorry to say, but he's a good friend. He put me out more than once. And Kevin Brady, who also put me out more than once, he was a second baseman.

They served, they represented states that had the same issue as our state. They served on appropriate committees. And I went to them. I said, hey, we've got some things in common. They're good people. We work together for the benefit of everybody. We got the job done. So find somebody. But not just one person, people on the other side who you can get to know and try to approach the job with respectful curiosity.

That means I don't just assume if you disagree with me, you're bad, I'm good; you're wrong, I'm right. It's I want to understand how you as a person and you as a representative understand why this issue matters the way it does to you, so I can learn from it. We may not agree, but I want to at least understand where you're coming from.

Taylor J. Swift: So, Brian, you served six terms in Congress, during which you represented a textbook swing district in the state of Washington. When you were first elected, you know, you were essentially a dark horse candidate. And yet, over your years in the halls, you've built meaningful relationships that withstand to this day. So talk to us about how you were able to establish those relationships with Members and build bridges across the aisle.

Former Rep. Brian Baird: That's a great question. You know, the year I got elected, the Heritage Foundation had a retreat. And, you know, it's sort of an alternative to the Kennedy Center orientation. I was the only Democrat who went. I just thought it was important. I got to go. I'm going to work with folks. Let's go listen to them; it's that respectful curiosity thing.

This sounds like a cliche, but I have some really good friends who are Republicans. Greg Walden's district was across from mine. You know, we shared…we both bordered the Columbia River. He's a real down to earth, common sense, super bright, motivated guy. Did we agree on everything?

No. But did we have a lot? We needed to find ways to work together because our districts had so much in common. But we also happened to like each other. My Ranking Member and well, I was Ranking Member for a time and he was Chair, and then I was Chair and he was Ranking Member — Bob Inglis from South Carolina, 98% lifetime voting record.

But Bob and I got along very well. We respected each other. We didn't do ad hominem attacks. We tried to make sure each guy’s, each Member, they I knew Bob had Members he had to take care of. He knew I had Members I had to take care of. How do we respect that, make the committee work for the sake of the issues?

Not as a platform for demagoguery. We worked along great. And the same was true of back then. It was Sherry Ballard and Vern Ayler. So I had a good working relationships with my counterparts. I was lucky they were all good guys for the most part, good people. And so, finding ways to do that, to build those friendships and relationships. And then within your own party, you know, one comes to find people who are persons of integrity, who are, who study matters, who think carefully, who are in it for the right reasons.

I personally gravitated to those folks. And when there were tough votes, I would call them. “How are you voting on this? Walk me through your thinking. Let's...” I'd much rather hear from them than from a lobbyist. Lobbyists have their role, but at the end of the day, we're accountable. And I wanted to hear how my friends and colleagues who I trust and respected made those decisions. And that was really helpful.

Aubrey Wilson: So there's a lot of unique aspects to being a Member of Congress, particularly with some of the events that you can be part of. And when getting to know your colleagues, I know that some of the really kind of surprising events around DC that unless you have been here, you never really hear about back home are events such as the Congressional Baseball Game or even Congressional delegation trips, which are the international trips that Members take together.

And it really seems to be that those events are really formative for relationships across the aisle. And then also just across, in a, the specialties with, with policy topic committee jurisdictions, everything else that just seems to really bring Members out of their shell. I was wondering if you could share some of your advice for new Members who are now finding themselves being sworn in to be part of an organization of 441 Members and Delegates, where they suddenly have to try to get to know everybody.

It's a very big class to be part of suddenly to find yourself as a Member of Congress. So what are some of your advice for getting to be known, and taking advantage of some of those more unique opportunities of how to get to know your new peers and colleagues?

Former Rep. Brian Baird: Well, it's really great question. One thing that I really found really helpful is the caucus system. And again, I don't mean like the Democratic caucus, but I mean there are issue caucuses for every imaginable issue. But joining those, you know, you're only you get assigned by somebody else to a committee. You know, you're the party leadership. You can ask to be on a committee, but you may not get on the committee that you really like. But if there are issues you care about, getting involved in those caucuses, whether it's a country caucus meeting, the caucus that focuses on a foreign nation or an issue caucus, like everything from shellfish to methamphetamine to fentanyl to sports broadcasting issues, you name it. But those are good avenues because you're not, nobody's grandstanding at a caucus meeting.

There's not the TV cameras aren't rolling. Congressional Record’s not recording my speech. You can literally get to know issues and get to know people. And the guards are down. You know, you'll find in caucuses oftentimes that your counterpart from the opposite side isn't the terrible, horrible person you once thought they were, partly because you come together around a shared interest.

Maybe it's the Diabetes Caucus, because maybe their kid has diabetes and so does yours, right? So use that caucus system. You mentioned CODELs. I am a big believer in CODELs. They get a bad rap. And in fairness, I found there sort of this is oversimplified, but there are people who go in the CODELs and don't do the homework.

And I really hate that. There's some who just sort of it is a paid vacation. It shouldn't be. It should be hard work. You should prepare for it. You should go to Congressional Research Service. If you're going to a country on a CODEL, call the CRS expert. They will bend over backwards to help you. They never get called.

They live their whole life studying this stuff and ask them, “What are the three books I should read before I go over there? What's your latest briefing? What are some resources I should be aware of? What should I watch out for?” I always tried to get a cultural brief. I mean, I tried never to. Well, I don't think tried. I never went on the CODELs where I couldn't at least say “please, thank you, and excuse me” in the native dialect, you know, it's not a big thing. And “nice to meet you.” Something like that. You know, spend a little time before the CODEL. The great part is you are traveling together. So now you're on some plane and you're sitting next to somebody and, you know, “So tell me about your family. Tell me about where you work. What brought you to Congress? What do you like to do?”

And you really experience things in some new ways. So set a high standard for your own preparation and conduct in the caucus or on a CODEL. It's really consequential. Be respectful of your hosts. It's not necessarily none of them can vote for you.

So spare the stump speech right. I've been in foreign countries and it's like, no, that's what you say in Kansas. We don't have to say this here in Mongolia, they can't vote for us, you know, so do the homework. But that finding those avenues and you mentioned there baseball that there's the Congressional Softball Game. There are, you know, fine things, you know, do do stuff that, that, that that brings people together.

Discussion

Aubrey Wilson: Taylor, before we jump to our last guests, is it okay if we just kind of hone in really fast on some of the examples that our last couple interviews gave us and highlighted about how to meet people across the aisle?

Taylor J. Swift: Let's do it.

Aubrey Wilson: Perfect. Okay, so the first one I want to just kind of hone in on is, Representative Baird made a comment about CODELs. And so these Congressional delegation trips, I just think they are such an incredible resource for Members of Congress, not only from like, a policy perspective, but from that building relationships perspective. CODELs are official travel that Members of Congress and staff get to go on.

Sometimes they're called staff-dels if they're just staff focused, but they come up throughout Congress and they're usually during recess weeks. And the ability for Members of Congress and their staff to take issue-specific travel, official travel, to really get to know a policy area super well. But actually having boots on the ground in a specific location to really focus on kind of deep learning about a specific policy area.

As anyone in Congress knows, it is absolutely crazy during a session week to try to become an expert on any policy topic, and CODELs have become this go-to resource for Members and staff to take them out of the kind of that day-to-day craziness and put them in a very controlled environment for three to four days, where they can actually get to know all of the different elements and sides and perspectives of a specific policy topic.

During my time on the Committee on House Administration, for example, I was lucky enough to be able to go on a Congressional delegation trip, when we actually went over to London and to Brussels to learn about Congressional and legislative modernization and continuity of operations following the COVID pandemic. And that, the ability for all of us to go over there with these Members of Congress and meet with the members of Parliament, members of the European Union, and hear their firsthand accounts and get their tours of their systems and really dig into these long, in-depth conversations about that topic not only really helped define our policy views on that area in a way that we never would have gotten from just a one-hour policy briefing back on the Hill, but it also really built and fostered strong relationships between the Members who went. It's not very often that you get to sit next to your colleagues for an eight or a ten hour flight, or to be sitting on a train as you're in the Chunnel going from Brussels to London.

Those relationships that were built not only between the Members and the staff on CODELs, they weren't only helpful from a policy perspective, but they were really, really impactful for these long-lasting relationships. And the staff that went on that trip with me, I still considered them to be really, really close, dear friends. And so for all of the Members out there who during your freshman term, you're invited to go on CODELs, really consider them to be an opportunity not only for policy development, but as Baird was highlighting, for building those really close friendships with people that otherwise you might not have the time to do.

Taylor J. Swift: That's so well said, Aubrey. And I think another avenue, and Representative Baird brought this up as well, are the use of caucuses to make sure that you're meeting your colleagues and staff, as well. Caucuses have kind of changed over the past several generations. They kind of aren't what they used to be to the degree I know in the 80s and 90s, they had a lot more legislative power.

Now they're more used for messaging and like-minded values and ideologies, but it's still an incredible way for you and your staff to meet like-minded folks that share values. And so there are some super large caucuses. I know that the Congressional Black Caucus and there are a lot of a lot of caucuses that filter through each of the caucus and conferences.

But then there are also a ton of like, fun caucuses. I'm thinking of, like the Congressional Bike Caucus, which is all of the Members that like to bike a lot, especially to work. Or even the Congressional Cheese Caucus, which is run by Representative Womack. So it covers any single area. But again, if there are things that you value as an individual Member or staffer, and you want to meet people with those shared values, caucuses are another great way to meet people not only in your party, but those across the aisle, as well.

Brian really emphasized why reaching across the aisle and learning about one another is so important. It may be hard, but it's definitely better to understand your colleagues who may end up maybe becoming friends.

Aubrey Wilson: Speaking of friends, we are about to bring back two former Members who forged their friendship in the halls of the House. Former Congressman Rodney Davis served as the Republican Representative for Illinois' thirteenth district for five terms, and former Congressman Ed Perlmutter, who's a seasoned politician from Colorado, served two terms in the Colorado State Senate and eight terms in the House for Colorado's seventh district.

These two became great friends while working in Congress, and even served together as we mentioned at the top of the episode on the House Select Committee on the Modernization of Congress during the 116th Congress.

Taylor J. Swift: Similar to how Representative Brian Baird wanted us to call him Brian, our next guest Reps. Davis and Perlmutter wanted us to call them Rodney and Ed.

Interview with Former Reps. Rodney Davis [R, IL] and Ed Perlmutter [D, CO]

Taylor J. Swift: Ed and Rodney, your terms in Congress overlapped by about a decade and during which you were able to get to know one another, even though you're from opposite sides of the country and the political aisle. In particular, your placements on the Select Committee on the Modernization of Congress in the 116th led to some truly entertaining discussions and showcased that bipartisanship and a sense of humor does have a place in the halls of Congress.

But, you know, Congress has, especially externally, it's really considered to be a stuffy and combative environment. But both of you are so relatable and congenial, and honestly like each other's company. So tell us how you're able to establish those relationships and build bridges across the aisle.

Former Rep. Ed Perlmutter: Well, I think for us it was just a miracle that we became friends. That, no. We became buddies through sports. Initially, I would say the gym and playing catch. He played on the Republican baseball team. I played on the Democratic baseball team. And in the off season, we would play catch down in the gym.

And we just, you know, and that really helped sort of, you know, that's like all-American. It was fun. You're shooting the bull as you're playing catch. I'm trying to throw knuckle balls at him and he's making fun of, you know, my pitches and all that stuff. And then, all of a sudden you have a relationship that's really so different than a political relationship, whether the politics on, you know, whether he was on my side of the aisle or the other side of the aisle, it's a it's like, okay, this is what this is how people interact elsewhere in the world playing catch, you know, visiting at the gym or whatever.

So we became friends and we love to kid each other. And it, just so sports was a piece of it. And I so I would say, Taylor, that, you know, a place to really develop relationships is something that isn't just on the floor of the House or in a committee room. You can develop friendships there. And, and I think people need to kind of focus on that a little bit because it helps you ultimately be a good legislator.

If you can work with everybody, you're a better legislator. But it's when you're doing something different: the gym or you're doing sports with somebody or you're going on a trip with them, you develop an entirely different relationship. And that then gives you a cushion to try to work on some of the legislative stuff. And to just sort of, you know, shrug off if somebody says something that, you know, that's crazy.

Instead of getting mad about it, you just say, okay, well, you know, he's got he's saying that. But that doesn't change my real friendship with him. So…it's you come at it several different ways. But I'd say that's, that's how at least the two of us did it. And that's, that's how I developed a lot of friendships I think, throughout the Congress.

Former Rep. Rodney Davis: Well, and Ed is completely correct, that you have to identify things outside of your job that you prioritize to be able to make new friends. I mean, really, coming to Congress is no different than going to college and moving into your dormitory the first day. I mean, you're walking up to people. I get out of my car when I got to orientation.

We pull up the Capitol Hill Hotel, and there's some guy standing on the street corner, sticks his hand out. He says, “Hi, my name is Dave,” and I'm like, “Hi, I'm Rodney.” And it was Dave Joyce, who, he and I are still best friends. I mean, we have condos near each other. So it's those meetings where you become, you know, that it's so valuable to make those friendships that transcend, as Ed said, the partisanship that you're going to experience, no matter how bipartisan you are. There are times when I probably thought I had the most ingenious bill or amendment on the House floor, and I guarantee Ed might have thought voting against it was better for his constituents.

And you can sit and look at that roll call and you'd be like, “I'm going to get all these people back.” Or you could be like, “You know what? I don't vote for everything my colleagues put on the floor. So if I'm going to get mad at everything, then don't they have the right to get mad at me when I vote against them?”

But it's just also like college in the sense that there are people that don't care to make friendships. And that's okay, because you can usually still find some common ground. And one of the best ways, and Ed mentioned it, it's through the athletic events here at the House. Ed and I played on the Congressional Baseball Team together, and had a blast for the ten years that he and I played together.

I coached the Congressional Football Team with Jimmy Panetta and got to meet so many people because Republicans and Democrats play together on that game in that game versus against each other in the baseball game. But it's those lifelong friendships that you're going to develop doing nothing related to being a Member of Congress.

It's being a friend and being a good person. And you know what, post Congress, Ed's probably one of the former Members I talk to the most, all because we took the time to get to know each other beyond our job. And trust me, Ed and I fought like cats and dogs on the Rules Committee and laughed about it during and after.

It doesn't mean you can't have your political principles and fight for them, but in the end, you got to realize life's a lot more about friendships than it is about your job. And don't let the job become you and define you. Because if that happens, then you're going to see the lights that light up the Capitol at night and you're going to be frustrated by it instead of being awed by it. And when that day comes, it's time to go.

Former Rep. Ed Perlmutter: And, Rodney said a couple of things that, you know, it's a tough job being a Member of Congress. I mean, you're making some very big decisions that affect a lot of people's lives. There are different philosophies and different values and different politics. And so you're clashing a lot, whether it's Democrats or Republicans or even within your own party, you're going to clash.

And having good friendships, even if you don't agree all the time or you agree you disagree a lot, you have somebody to talk to. You have somebody to bounce something off. You know, you have somebody to complain to, you know, which is a lot of what we do. But it's important to have developed relationships where it's a very small fraternity slash sorority, and a lot of people don't understand what you're going through, but each of you knows what you're going through.

And sometimes it's tough and you need those people to visit with. One last thing. And so we talked about how Rodney and I became buddies doing sports. One of the most fun things that I did period bar none. And I'm still doing it, is coaching the Women's Softball Team, and it's Democrats and Republicans, House and Senate, women play the media.

And so it's a bipartisan, bicameral effort playing the enemy, which is the media, the, you know, the reporters for CNN or the Washington Post or the New York Times or whatever, ABC, NBC, and you want to talk about a tight-knit bunch, those women on that softball team, Democrats, Republicans, Members, Representatives and Senators, and they enjoy it.

I know for many of them, it's the most fun thing they do because it is so different than everything else that you do. And it's created a lot of great friendships, raised a lot of money for charity, for young women with breast cancer. And so, there are ways to take what is a tough job. You get to do some things that you never imagined you would ever do again, like play softball, you know, so or coach softball. So, you know, and you just got to be willing to, to kind of get out of your normal day to day stuff. And then it adds a whole look that just makes the place work.

Former Rep. Ed Perlmutter: So I got to talk about one more thing that you do. Sometimes you do silly things, but they become fun things. And that's is we, you know, we set up this kind of Christmas decoration competition on the second floor of Longworth. That became a lot of fun. Now some people. Okay, should we have Christmas decorations?

And, you know, you get into all of that kind of stuff, but everybody sort of pitched in on that floor. Didn't matter who they were. Some of them were a little more stark. I kept having this fight with Mike Gallagher because he thought all of his, you know, Budweiser or whatever kind of beers they have up in Wisconsin, Pabst Blue Ribbon or whatever the heck it was. You know, he would have all these blown up things. And we had, like, real decorations. And so ours was always the best. But he always won and made me mad.

Former Rep. Rodney Davis: Oh, it's because you're a loser, Ed and Gallagher's a winner. He was my mentee as a freshman. What else? What else do you expect?

Former Rep. Ed Perlmutter: All right, I'm going to stop while I’m ahead, kinda.

Interview with Bradford Fitch

Taylor J. Swift: Wow, talk about goals. There really is never a dull moment between those two. We hope that that put a smile on your face.

Aubrey Wilson: Our next guest is a familiar friend at the Gavel In podcast. Bradford Fitch talked to us on his first official day of retirement after working at the Congressional Management Foundation for over 20 years, where he served as president and CEO. For these interviews, he wanted us to call him Brad. And for those of you who are new to CMF, we highly recommend checking out all of their resources on their website.

So with working at CMF, which is this incredible, you know, nonpartisan, bipartisan organization that has done incredible research on Member effectiveness and office effectiveness. It's hard to look past, kind of, the civility issues that we're seeing on the Hill these days, and especially the ones that media portrays. I was wondering what some of the key factors are that you've seen that have contributed to the breakdown of civility in Congress, and how Members and staff can work to overcome these challenges and set a new tone during their freshman term?

Bradford Fitch: Well, I would identify the following factors as contributing to the breakdown in civility in Congress. And they're not ones you would probably expect. The number one factor, and most researchers will agree, is the practice that was started in the 1980s and continued into the 90s, and 2000s of Members of Congress not moving their families to Washington, DC.

The kids weren't going to the same school. They weren't going to the same church. They weren't getting together and, and building those bonds and those relationships. So that's the number one factor. Another factor has been the reduction in the amount of travel that Members do. And this is largely caused by so-called good government groups attacking business travel, and by the media attacking business travel.

It's ridiculous to me that it's the only profession where business travel is, is criticizing him. You don't see newspapers criticizing, you know, the Denver Broncos for flying to San Francisco for work, to play a football game. Why would you criticize a Member of Congress to flying to Britain to talk to their counterparts about good governing, or going to the Middle East to talk about, you know, problems in the Middle East?

It's maddening that this happens. And the portrayal of these things as junkets is been a dead sort of way of doing things since the 1970s. Yeah, in the 70s, 80s, even early 90s, travel was abused by Members of Congress. I witnessed it, but starting in the 90s when the crackdown started happening more and more, these are kind of brutal trips.

I remember working with a reporter who wanted to do a story on a Member of Congress traveling, and he knew enough that he shouldn't be doing it. But his editor insisted, and they got it. It was a television story, and they got a picture of their Senator on a trip to Kabul, wearing a flak jacket.

And I turned to the reporter. I said, “This is not a garden spot if you might get shot. Okay, do you get this?” And so I think that's another contributing factor to incivility, is they're not building relationships. I can point to new legislation that has been enacted into law, because two Members of Congress were sitting next to each other on a plane flying back from Bosnia.

I could tell you the bill. I mean, that's how it happens. I think another contributing factor is the appearance of incivility. And the appearance in civility has been significantly amplified by social media. And I know people want to think that this crowd is worse than others that we have in Congress. And yes, we do have some incivil, uncivil Members of Congress.

But we did in the 1970s and 60s. They just didn't have Twitter. And that really is a huge factor. I think in the perception of incivility in the institution is that the louder voices, the uncivil voices are, frankly, louder. They just plain louder than they were in 1975 and 1985. Because social media amplifies it.

Aubrey Wilson: I want to go back for a second and kind of double down on the Congressional travel piece, because we have heard from other guests as well on the podcast across the episodes about the benefit of CODELs and Congressional delegation trips for the international learning aspect of it and relationship building. But I know that there's also been a little bit of a movement in the last couple of Congresses to do some Member to Member districts swap type of trips.

Can you share a little bit about, like, that trend that we've seen and the benefit of that kind of domestic travel, as well, for Members of Congress.

Bradford Fitch: One of the unheralded, wonderful programs to promote bipartisanship in the Congress is conducted by the Bipartisan Policy Center, which has a Member exchange program that's fantastic. Where Members agree to travel to each other's districts in a weird quirk that has been fixed now. But a few years ago, ethics rules interfered with this. It sounds crazy, but it interfered with it.

Members of Congress couldn't travel in the same automobile once they got there. What? It's crazy. It's been fixed now. But, you know, these are just some of the antiquities we have to deal with. And that has been a great program. I've talked to Members of Congress about this and what their attitude was, and I talked to one Member, a Democrat, who went to a very conservative Republican’s district and said, “Look, you know, we haven't found an area for to work on yet, but I treat her differently and she treats me differently because of our trip together. And she looks at my district a little differently and, you know, in a completely different…hers is a rural district, mine is an urban district.” And it was just a wonderful story here. And those exchange programs need to be increased. We need to see more of that happening, because that kind of bipartisan collaboration is absolutely essential to a functioning legislature.

Taylor J. Swift: So, a few minutes ago, you also mentioned how the increased use of social media and, you know, combined with other like, incentive factors, really, really incentivize the erosion of rapport between Members of Congress. So with that in mind, you know, how can lawmakers maintain these positive working relationships? I know we just talked CODELs. We're talking professional development. But how can they maintain working together despite, you know, maybe disagreeing quite intensely in the public eye?

Bradford Fitch: I think the first thing Members have to realize is in this very divided government that we have, unless you choose bipartisanship, you will be ineffective. You will not get anything done. I was at a breakfast with a Legislative Director from a Democratic office and a Legislative Director from a Republican office, and he was asked, the Democrat was asked kind of the same question, you know, “Why is it that you have embraced your Republican colleague to work on so many projects together?”

And the young man replied, “I like passing bills into laws. And I realized I need Republicans to do that.” And so it's a pretty straightforward, like, this is the way the institution works. And it's even in the House of Representatives, when you look at some of the major bills that have been passed in the last ten years, like the 21st Century Cures Act or the Senate passing the infrastructure law, which was on a bipartisan basis.

If you look at every single budget, every single appropriations bill that has been passed since 2011, people forget and missed the fact it has been done on a bipartisan basis, over 300 votes almost every time in the House of Representatives. So this is the republic that we have been given. We don't have a parliament. I do get a little frustrated when I see people say, well, if we just get the majority back.

No, a) you're still going to have to work in a slim majority in the House of Representatives, and b) in the Senate, we're always going to have filibusters. That's never going to go away. I always get amused when I see a reporter say, “Oh, the Democrats control the Senate.” I worked in the Senate for five years. Nobody controls the Senate.

It's the effing Senate, okay? It just is? There's nobody controls it. One senator can make things just miserable for the other 99, and then someone usually goes on a daily if not hourly basis. So I think there's already a legislative and business incentive for these people. And most of them get it and understand that they may not voice it when they're on CNBC and Fox or back home.

I'm constantly amused when I look at Members’ Twitter feeds. When they're back home, they're normal politicians. They're going, getting their picture taken with the prize cow at the state fair. They're doing a ribbon cutting at a hospital, and they're telling people what they're doing. And it's a really good display of democracy in action. And then they come to Washington and they all tweet the same thing: “We're great. They suck. Here's why,” over and over again. And it's ridiculous. And so I think that the Members do realize that if they're going to get anything done, they have to collaborate with counterparts. They have to work in a bipartisan fashion. And hopefully they get that. And most of them do when you really talk to them and understand what they want to accomplish.

Taylor J. Swift: So given how intense the schedules are, both during the workday and after the workday, combined with all of the pressure of campaign finance, how do Members find time to reach across the aisle and not only try to establish these relationships, but maintain them over the course of a session?

Bradford Fitch: Members of Congress have to be intentional about building bridges across party lines, because it's not easy. There are not a lot of avenues. It happens, but it does happen. I'll give you a couple of examples. Some years ago, one of the subcommittees of the Financial Services Committee hosted a series of bipartisan dinners, and they brought in experts because, you know what? They need experts to talk about financial services is a complicated topic. And the Members have loved it. The Modernization Committee has created some collaborative workspaces that are available now in the House of Representatives. One of the great examples of bipartisanship happens, frankly, when people have a bond that goes beyond party. It has been well known for years that the women in the Senate are more likely to collaborate with one another.

And by the way, research on legislation shows women in general are better legislators than men. Sorry, guys, but that's just what the research shows. They're just more effective legislators at getting things done. So when they have those bonds, we see this with veterans often, they can build bridges across party lines because they have that common history of being a veteran.

And so I think that looking for those other connections. I had a wonderful anecdote at a breakfast I hosted at the Congressional Management Foundation for two freshmen. Well, these were a bunch of freshmen Chiefs of Staff of there. And the two Chiefs, one from one state and one from another — Democrat and Republican — soon discovered that both of their bosses had six-month-old babies, and it was their first kid.

And that was the bond that happened. You got to look for these oases of, places where it happens. I've heard this story. One of the great bonding places for bipartisanship are lactation stations in the House and Senate, because, you know, I'm look, I'm a guy. I don't know about this, but there's not a lot, I guess, you can do it when you're expressing breast milk.

And except talk to the person in the chair next to you and watch C-SPAN. So that happens. There was a great story I heard years ago where a Senator and a Legislative Director in the Hart Senate Office Building were walking up to the elevator, and another Senator from the other party came over to get in the same elevator. It was a very awkward moment because these two senators didn't like each other.

And so everybody's sitting there in this awkward silence. And the second Legislative Director came up and the two women hugged. “Oh, how are you doing? What's going on?” These two Senators are looking at these two women like, what the hell is going on here? So they finally got off the elevator ride and they walked away. And the one Senator asked the Legislative Director, like, “How do you know that woman?”

And she said, “Our kids are in daycare together.” And the Senate Daycare Center is one of those oases of bipartisanship. So I think both at the staff and Member level, embracing those opportunities. I ran into a Member of Congress last year at Eastern Market, and I knew the Member and said, “Hi,” and he was buying some cheese and some crackers and I was like, “Wow, you got a party at your house?”

He said, “Yeah, I'm doing scotch tasting, a bipartisan Scotch tasting at my house tonight.” And I'm like, “Right on, brother. That's the way to do it.” Yeah, like a little good brie and, Johnnie Walker will definitely, break down some of those partisan walls.

Aubrey Wilson: With, kind of, the overall topic of, of civility and building relationships across the aisle. And also just like even in our party and just getting to know people through new avenues to just kind of increase your perspectives when you're out working on the Hill. Do you have any, like, last thoughts on the topic or last tips or tricks that you really recommend that staff and Members invest in when they're starting to build out their networks on the Hill during their freshman term?

Bradford Fitch: When Members are freshmen and they're thinking about building bridges across party lines, it's really important that they're intentional and that they have a goal in mind because that's the incentive. So, I've known Members of Congress who have said, I want an equal number of Members of both parties to cosponsor my bill. So they've instructed their staff, if you get a Democrat, you got to go find another Republican before you add them, those two Members to the bill.

So they've created structures that require bipartisanship to happen. And it works. And in a wonderful way. I do encourage Members of Congress to engage in Congressional delegation trips called CODELs, where they do meet Members of the other party. I encourage them, especially at the committee level, there are opportunities to have retreats or have informal dinners with their colleagues.

Going over, especially when they've got a subject matter expert that can come in. One of the things that Members don't realize is that they are very popular with experts in the field, academics, people in industry. And, you know, you pull together four or six Members of Congress in a bipartisan way. You're going to get a really good speaker.

They're going to want to talk to you. So I think there are more opportunities than people think, but they've got to be intentional to look for them. During the orientation program, I know the House is going to be offering up more opportunities for Members to get together, which is a very good thing. There are other retreats that are coming up for freshmen.

The Harvard University's Institute of Politics will be doing a retreat in December. That is definitely something that every freshman lawmaker should attend. And so any other opportunities for events that are happening where they can break bread and get to know people on the other side of the aisle is definitely going to be, eventually, something that's going to benefit them.

Discussion

Aubrey Wilson: All right, Taylor. Well, I definitely feel like this episode is the hug that we all needed. And also just a reality check during a very politicized election year, Congress is about relationships and some really extraordinary ones can be made across the aisle, as we know, because you and I are friends now hosting this podcast together.

Taylor J. Swift: Preach!

Aubrey Wilson: But in all seriousness, I do think that all of our guests highlighted that through so many personal experiences, and so many inspirational stories and tips for how you can build relationships across the aisle, that it is possible these days. You know, partisanship is obviously what the Hill seems to be known for, but it's not always the do all end all, every single day in the halls of the House. Taylor, what stood out to you is the biggest takeaway?

Taylor J. Swift: Oh my. Well, for me, I think when we were interviewing former Reps. Davis and Perlmutter, something that Rodney said really, really stuck out to me. He was talking about how you can fight for your political principles, but also it's really, really important to have friendships and not have the job become you or define you. And he said something towards the end about how when you're looking up at night and seeing the light of the Capitol, if you're frustrated when you look up there instead of being in awe by it, that means that your time in Congress might be coming to an end.

And so I just really…that really hit home for me is even to this day, I'm not in Congress anymore. But I spent a couple of years there, even when I'm bike riding or walking at night and I see that Capitol dome, it still leaves me in awe. And that's because, like you just said, Aubrey, I think the ongoing relationships I have with folks that still work there and don't work there left such a positive influence on me, and it allows me to wake up and be excited for everything that I do and that includes this podcast. So, what were some of your biggest takeaways?

Aubrey Wilson: Well, I was just going to say, Taylor, I completely agree with you on that. You know, Congress is obviously a job, but it's also pretty all-consuming for your lifestyle, and the people who know how to survive it are the ones that are in it with you. And as you know, Mr. Davis was saying with that quote that you just, you know, highlighted, you have to have friendships to be able to survive it.

And I think that, you know, both in this episode, but also in our episode on staffing that we had earlier in the Gavel In series, you know, we really emphasized the role that mentorship can play in relationships can play, and also a bunch of resources that are out there to make sure that staff and Members both feel supported. Congress is hard, and those relationships make it survivable.

Taylor J. Swift: So to that point, you know, it's a really consequential place to work. Especially the media, they make it seem like it's conflict driven and debate, especially when they're trying to drive home clicks and engagement. But that should never come at the cost of doing the right thing or leaving the wrong impression. Relationships can often be the backbone of policy, and they sure are the backbone of the institution.

So respecting and understanding folks from the other side of the aisle can often lead to tons of solutions, especially positive ones. And don't take it from us. We heard it from Representatives Davis and Perlmutter during this conversation in this episode.

Aubrey Wilson: And you see that all the time, too. It's not a rarity in the halls. A lot of people there act with a ton of civility and a ton of respect, and I think that that goes back to what Representative Frost was saying earlier in the episode, as well. You have to approach the job with some humility, learn how the ropes of the game are played, and also look to mentors in Congress to help you figure it out during your first couple of years. Before you know it, you're going to have a whole host of friends that will hopefully be as lifelong as Perlmutter and Davis seem to have formed.

Conclusion

Taylor J. Swift: Hear, hear, Aubrey. We want to extend a special thank you to all of our guests today, Representative Maxwell Frost, Representative Derek Kilmer, former Representatives Brian Baird, Ed Perlmutter, and Rodney Davis, and of course, Brad Fitch for taking the time out of their busy schedules to share their wisdom.

Aubrey Wilson: Thank you for listening to Gavel In, and be sure to join us next time. For more insider knowledge and actionable tips for your journey through Congress. If you found today's episode helpful, please feel free to share it with your colleagues and be sure to go to our website, popvox.org/gavel where the episode page has extra resources to make sure that you and your team are set up for success, both in DC and the district.

Speaking of which, you can also go to popvox.org/futureproofing to learn more about how you can make a difference in your new role to ensure that Congress itself is likewise set up for success in the long run. Follow us @popvoxfdn on X and Instagram, and we're POPVOX Foundation on LinkedIn. Thank you for your service and we will see you in Congress.

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